The Empire will strike back folks. Brace yourselves and don’t self-congratulate too much, the real fight starts now. Good luck, American friends!

That’s what she said.

You guys need a multiparty system.

And you need to weaken your federal government.

And you need to stop worshipping a bunch of 18th century slave owners.

Basically, the American political system is ridiculous.

This whole discussion is centred on Seinfeld dating a 17 year old. It isn’t some abstract academic debate.

It’s when they start saying nonsensical shit like this that you got to look up someone’s age. Seinfeld is 71 and saying stupid things. Go to bed gramps.

Classic Soresi bit: https://youtu.be/nu6C2KL_S9o

Don’t be obtuse. They’re talking about a teenager.

I get, and regret, that the gratuitous use of “stan” to hint/signify “backwards place” is a form of racism.

What are the other 3 levels?

This is courtiers fighting for Royal favour.

Trump doesn’t have a government, he has a Court.

This reads like fake news. I don’t believe they are that idiotic.

Oh fuck.

Alright, at this point I’ll disengage. Have a nice day.

100% right. Doesn’t that make sense, though? You don’t necessarily have to agree with me that it’s not helpful, but isn’t it weird to just kind of keep using it and acting like we’re talking about what the “real” definition of it should be when you know that that’s my argument?

No it doesn’t make sense. I never pushed to you any “real” definition, I specifically talked about multiple definitions. I don’t understand what’s “weird”. If you’re touchy about the word, feel free to exit the discussion. Many words have multiple, often contradictory and historically loaded meanings: “christianity”, “socialism”, “honour”. What’s weird about talking about them?

So… you’re on board with defining some people as “evil,”

Where the actual fuck did I do that?

The only time I mentioned the word “evil” was to say “the vast majority of zionists who mean something completely different than you, and something much more sinister and evil,”. I was referring to this: “Nearly half of Israelis support army killing all Palestinians in Gaza, poll finds. An overwhelming number of Israelis, including seculars, back the forced transfer of Palestinians from Gaza and Israel”. I think we can we agree that forced transfer of population, i.e., ethnic cleansing, is evil, right? I am not “defining people as evil”. I am saying that a majority Israelis define their zionism as including something sinister and evil: ethnic cleansing.

I’ve actually seen people get accused of being Zionists

I already told you: “I personally don’t consider the word “zionist” to be a slur.” I don’t use it as an accusation. So I don’t know what to do with your defensiveness here.

I was saying something totally different from that. What was I saying? I am curious about your reading comprehension.

You are saying that the word means too many different things to too many different people and therefore is not helpful to be used. Did I get it right?

You also still haven’t answered my question, I don’t think. Am I a Zionist? Is Bernie Sanders?

I did answer, I told you I don’t care.

You really want to be able to use this terminology, say that particular people are or are not Zionists (in the “really existing” form),

Point out to me where I applied the term it to any particular person.

so I am curious to hear how you would apply it when you’re not trying to construct the exact messaging that’s your favorite messaging to construct with it.

People who say they are zionists are zionists. So, to get back to your question (“Am I a Zionist? Is Bernie Sanders?”): do you identify as one? Then you are one. Does Bernie identify as one? Then he is one.

Well, we have spent the last few comments discussing what other zionisms could be like, so I don’t know where the idea that I am asserting zionism in the abstract is a monolith is coming from. But it is actually true that zionism in the concrete, or “really existing zionism” if you will, has certain characteristics and is in fact the current ideological basis for an ongoing genocide. Abstract vs concrete. It matters.

Other than that, I think we are confusing a couple of things.

1. The article (and I) am talking about how a Virginia politician is being treated (tone policed, etc) by the top democrats in Virginia.
2. You seem to be talking about how you and I are interacting in this thread.

I disagree with your reading of the article as somehow smearing “Democrats”. It’s about Virginia politics. Top democrats in Virginia talking about a Virginia delegate. Virginia, Virginia, Virginia. Nothing dishonest about focusing on Virginia. It is in that context that my comments refer, in that context that the word zionism is being used, not to this discussion between us. Anyway, nice talking to you.

To me this sounds like a problem of honest universalist democratic zionists (whoever those are) to be solving, and definitely not something to be foisted upon the Palestinians to figure out all the nuances of zionism. I don’t see value in tone policing the people speaking out for the victims. If honest democratic zionists haven’t been able to rebrand, redefine, salvage zionism, that’s their problem, not the Palestinians’. The Palestinians have other, more pressing problems. If you (not you personally, the generic “you”) honestly believe that zionism can be salvaged for democracy and universal human rights, your time would be much better spent yelling at the vast majority of zionists who mean something completely different than you, and something much more sinister and evil, that wagging fingers to Palestinians.

I …don’t care? I personally don’t consider the word “zionist” to be a slur. If there is a version of zionism that can coexist with full Palestinian freedom, with full Israeli accountability for what they have done and are doing, and with fully equal democratic rights for all the people in Israel-Palestine regardless of creed and ethnic origin, including the right of return for all refugees as well as reparations in the context of a genuine Truth and Reconciliation process, then I have no problem being called that kind of a zionist too. I don’t see it, but if you have one that you can point at, sure, why not.

EDIT: to clarify: on the other hand if such a version of zionism does not (edit2: or cannot) exist, then why would anyone want to be associated with an ideology incompatible with universal freedom and democracy? The mere “existence” if this or that state is irrelevant, if such a state cannot be a free and democratic place for all the people in its territory. If Israel cannot be a democracy with human rights for all the people living under its power, then I honestly don’t care if it exists or not. As a gentile Canadian/European dual citizen, I would much rather spend my energy making Canada and Europe safe places for Jewish life and prosperity such that Jewish people can thrive and be happy here, than support some hopeless apartheid ethnostate.

This is his message that drew the condemnations:

“One day, everyone will have always been against this genocide. After 22 months of the most horrific crimes, there is no doubt that Israel is conducting the most evil cleansing in human history as we fund and watch it play out minute by minute.

Much love to so many of my Jewish friends who have stood up from the first weeks of this horror to say this is not in our name. We know that this was never about religion, rather a supremacist ideology created to destroy and conquer everything and everyone in its way. This is Zionism.

Zionists yearn to be the only victim and deflect from the evils perpetuated in its name. Instead of calling for an end to genocide, Zionists have bastardized antisemitism making the world less safe for my Jewish friends.

There is no middle ground in this supremacist mess. The rights stripped from Palestinians for decades are being stripped here now. The concentration camps in Gaza are being built here. Zionism has proven how evil our society can be, and sadly we are beginning to experience it here in our great Republic.

Now is our time to rise up and stand on the right side of history.”

He’s talking about the Zionism that is perpetrating the crimes in Gaza. It is your choice to focus on a “not all zionists” take, and it is your choice to focus on the crimes being talked about. In my opinion, just like “not all men” is (at best) a silly response to legitimate grievances about rape culture, the “not all zionists” take is also (at best) silly in the face of apartheid, genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Cool, so be super responsible on their part instead. If they can’t be trusted to save up themselves, do the saving up of all the money yourself, o wise conservative. And let’s put all that money in a trust fund for them and just give them the dividends. Let’s call those dividends a “Universal Basic Dividend”.

Can someone explain to this non-american why the Democrats are treating this as a successful upset when they could have released the Epstein files during Biden?