- 9 Posts
- 23 Comments
10·1 year ago
And it’s not like those were one-offs, COINTELPRO was crazy in scope and did massive damage beyond just the murders.
It’s not like that’s all in the past either, just look at how the Palestine protests were handled as well as the Floyd protests.
Yeah if you’re getting very into the weeds on it Is there some minor difference between how that classless/stateless society operates?
Sure but most of the difference in analysis and conclusions is on how to arrive at the classless/stateless society.
The differences between the vision of classless/stateless societies communists and anarchists have is minor compared to pretty much any other broad 2 political ideologies have as what visions of the perfect society is.
Cuba has sent doctors and other medical support to countries of many different ideologies. They would 100% assist an anarchist group if asked and it’s something they could provide.
Currently China and Vietnam are both willing to trade with countries of any ideology.
You’re latching on to a couple examples in the past and saying nothing else can happen besides that. If that’s going to be the extent of your argument no point in continuing this since there’s nothing left to talk about then.
There’s some historical examples where that may have been the case but that’s not some universal constant that can’t be changed.
Fundamentally they both want the same thing in the end so disagreements on how you get there can be resolved. If 2 different areas/groups try 2 different paths there’s no reason they can’t work together where mutually beneficial.
Would people have to get over being too overly dogmatic about their way? Yes and that may be difficult but not impossible.
Which is the end goal of communists, but you can’t really have a stateless society until all or nearly all countries are socialist unless you’re going the anarchist route.
The buffalo/whale alliance welcomes the support of the bumble bees in its war against the capitalist humans.
Fact based education standards.
Teaching a bunch of lies about American exceptionalism and how imperialism is actually good isn’t what I’d call “fact based”
Stop racism in policing
Right like how democrats in nearly all major cities increased police funding and almost none passed any meaningful reform.
Expanded healthcare subsidies
But don’t remotely consider universal healthcare
Preserve democracy
Preserve the status quo which I wouldn’t call a democracy. A democracy enacts the will of the people, democrats don’t even have a democratic primary for their own party.
Nowhere in this meme does it say that “both sides are the same”. It’s (correctly) showing how both parties don’t give a shit about the working class.
Republicans are horrible but you can’t expect the Democrats to save or help you from them after we have tons of evidence showing they will also break strikes, pass right wing immigration laws, attack protesters, support genocide, and do almost nothing to stop rising fascism.
Also trying to diminish supplying and funding a genocide to just “a single foreign policy issue” is pretty fucked up and not even accurate. Leftists were willing to overlook hundreds of issues we had with Kamala as a candidate if she could just do the bare fucking minimum of not actively funding and supplying a genocide and she couldn’t even do that.
Gotta say I really appreciate that you do this. I try to varying degrees when I have the time since like you said it’s usually so lurkers can have their minds changed but it can be time consuming.
It’s really nice when others are jumping in to help and I see you posting great takes a ton.
7·2 years agoRobert F Kennedy and Chase Oliver voters are peeling off votes from Trump not Harris.
If you look at the count of the RFK/ Oliver/ Libertarian voters they more or less cancel out the Green and socialist candidate/party voters
Lmao yes famous things leftists ask for like:
- Stating your difference from Biden would be to have a republican in your cabinet.
- Campaigning with Liz Cheney.
- Enacting the rights border policies.
- Walking back a commitment to ban fracking.
- Walking back support for Medicare 4 All
- Walking back support for the green new deal.
- Supplying and funding the genocide leftists and Arab voters explicitly wanted stopped.
They can’t even blame third party voters this time around because from the current tallies it wouldn’t have made a difference.
They didn’t activate what should be their base enough and instead tried to court neocons and these mythical moderate republicans that would abandon trump in swaths for a righter wing democrat (hint: they will always prefer the actual republican).
If the democratic leadership takes this result as anything but an indictment of their attempt to abandon popular left policies to become the Republicans of 20 years ago they are hopeless. I’m not holding my breath though.
Oh I agree, but that’s was a whole other can of worms I wasn’t trying to get into at the moment since I’ve got a busy and long work day that’s still not over unfortunately lol
I didn’t ignore what you said. My retort to
No. If 5% of my voting base sits out over a single issue, I’m going to lose my interest in trying to triangulate their support and move in another direction to identify a more persuadable bloc of voters. That goes more if the abandonment is repetitive, and if the issues constantly change, or if the issue is something I can’t bend on for electoral reasons. If one bloc of voters is easier to please than another, then I’m moving in their direction, even if it’s rightward. Unfortunately it’s winner-take-all, and you’re either in power or you’re not. There are no half-wins.
Was that if it’s a clear issue like the genocide Israel is carrying out that has a lot of strong opposition to the Democrats current position it really isn’t all that hard to triangulate what the cause is.
It’s been known it’s THE issue the democrats are losing support for given the coverage of the non committed movement. As for how tough it is to It’s literally not support a genocide that’s how you please that group. It’s literally following our current laws to not supply and fund a country committing a genocide.
the importance of Gaza
Literally from your own link “though some questioned whether it would push them not to vote at all.” In a thread where people are complaining about a small amount of people voting third party could lose the election for democrats in swing states I guess it is an important issue if it’s driving even some people in swing states to not vote.
Also when the non committed movement has more support in some states than the margin of victory in 2020 I would say it’s pretty important.
the “ease” of withdrawing support
So genocide is alright as long as they’re an enemy of Iran, that’s your argument? Israel is literally the one escalating the situation in the area, pulling their support or at least threatening to do so until the genocide is stopped would actually deescalate the situation in the region.
how much Democrats have moved rightward
I don’t disagree they’ve moved left on most social issues when looking at at that long of a time span that’s in the article you linked. I’m talking this election cycle Kamala has clearly shifted right from the policies she ran on in 2016.
how many centrist Republicans vote for Democrats.
In 1 election, that’s the sample size. That’s not a trend and it’s against Trump who is an historically awful candidate for moderates to try and stomach. They’ll be back voting R once he’s gone so it’s not a good long term strategy when you’re alienating what should be your base to the point their considering not voting or voting third party.
Moreover, you seem to be valuing the strongly-held opinions of voters in non-swing states (what you’re calling “deep blue states” or “areas that effectively don’t matter”) more highly than the maybe-less-strongly held opinions of voters in swing states. If 5% of Democratic voters in California want sushi, and 5% of Democratic voters in Pennsylvania want steak, I’m picking steak and telling the California voters to take a hike. Their opinion doesn’t even register on my radar thanks to the electoral consequences of pissing off the Pennsylvanians who wanted steak.
You completely misunderstood what my example was trying to get across. I’m not valuing non swing state voters opinions more than swing state voters.
I understand that the swing state voters are going to have an outsized role in what each party pushes. Tactically I would be saying the voters in swing states especially should be witholding their vote unless the democrats stop supporting Israel’s genocide since it would be more leverage but obviously trump getting elected isn’t a great alternative which is why I didn’t mention that since that’s a risk.
What I was saying is that given that non swing states you can safely vote third party to show your displeasure in the genocide we’re supporting and possibly shed light that it’s got a large amount of importance to voters.
Edit: formatting since I’m on mobile and at work.
Not funding and supplying a genocide seems to be a pretty clear and easy issue to change especially when 60%+ of democrats are in favor of it. We’re already violating our own laws by continuing to do so.
The democrats are already moving to the right even with the left continuing to vote for them. They think they can win over some centrists republicans (even though they can’t in a meaningful number) by adopting right wing policies while not losing the left because at the moment they know votes are guaranteed because “republicans worse”.
Having voters in areas that effectively don’t matter this cycle show there displeasure in the genocide we’re enabling is the least we can do to counter it.
You’re looking at things through there lens of 1 election cycle.
If a third party that’s against the genocide Israel is carrying out gets say 5% of voters in deep blue or deep red states would that not be a signal to the democrats that they should change their stance before the next election?
It definitely isn’t the only time I care about third parties. Continued direct action in the community is the most important way to affect change. The election is just a useful event for publicity and gaining support for groups.
There’s 0% chance my comment is going to convince enough people this election cycle that it effects a non swing states election. It’s about slowly building support for groups.
But at the same time why vote for a party that won’t win?
Building support for change has to start somewhere, while they won’t win this election the more support they get the more visibility socialism gets as well as showing that people aren’t willing to vote for genocide. At the very least it shows the amount of people unhappy the democrats aren’t taking a harder stance on Israel.
As for the PSL specifically, they’re the best option on the ballot in my state. Thank you for the link though I’ll take a deeper look when I have a chance.
If enough people are voting third party that it’s a threat then maybe the other parties should take notice and change to support the popular policies and win back support.
Also we can do more than 1 thing at a time. We should be pushing things like ranked choice voting while also showing our displeasure with the current parties where it makes sense to do so.
Giving support to third parties gives them and the issues they’re promoting more visibility to the general public.