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  • 27 Comments
Joined 3 years ago
Cake day: June 12th, 2023
  • SomeLemmyUser@discuss.tchncs.detoPolitical Memes@lemmy.world•"It's all so unclear and confusing!"
    1·
    1 year ago

    No, I stand firmly with all nations aggressively atacked. Russia is an imperialistic state clearly at fault here taking land, oppressing people and taking lives.

    My point is that the meme makes it seem like NATO expansion is a narrative that’s being superimposed to the little girl Russia, who does genocide for the fun of it by someone else.

    This is not the case

    Its a narrative they themself push since Gorbachev. Putin doesn’t wake up and decides to convert his whole economy to war economics and invading countries for the fun of it. Its a geopolitical/imperialistic struggle for power with the west with a long history.

  • SomeLemmyUser@discuss.tchncs.detoPolitical Memes@lemmy.world•"It's all so unclear and confusing!"
    31·
    1 year ago

    Yes, I think western military power DOES play a major role in Russia’s geopolitical/imperialistic strategy. The EU alone has more expenses for military then Russia annually.

    I do think Russia wants to

    hav[e] back as much ex-soviet territories as possible and to enlarge its political influence sphere.

    That’s exactly my point. If western influence grows, Russia pushes back, no matter if ethical or not.

    That’s a core part of the conflict not a narrative superimposed on russia by people defending Putin.

  • SomeLemmyUser@discuss.tchncs.detoPolitical Memes@lemmy.world•"It's all so unclear and confusing!"
    37·
    1 year ago

    The myth of a ‘deal’ that NATO would continue to act as though Eastern Europe was under the thumb of the Warsaw Pact is just that, a myth.

    I am not arguing that international law or a treaty was broken with NATO eastward extension, and I don’t argue it was was wrong.

    My point is, that Russia clearly communicated they see it this way.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_regarding_NATO's_eastward_expansion

    … what end of the deal was that? In this version of the myth, did Russia promise, in exchange, to not invade its neighbors?

    Not that explicitly, but yes, that’s exactly the story they are telling.

    Einerseits war für Gorbatschow eine Vergrößerung der NATO-Zone auf Ostblock-Staaten „inakzeptabel“.[4][5] In einem Telegramm an den französischen Präsidenten vom April 1990 schlug Gorbatschow wiederum eine paneuropäische Sicherheitsarchitektur unter Führung der NATO vor. Im Mai 1990 erwog er sogar eine Mitgliedschaft der Sowjetunion in der NATO.[6] Die Ablehnung einer NATO-Erweiterung auf die mittelosteuropäischen Staaten bzw. vor allem die Ablehnung einer von der Sowjetunion bzw. dann Russland gänzlich unabhängigen freien Bündniswahl dieser Mitgliedsstaaten des sich zum 1. Juli 1991 auflösenden Warschauer Paktes blieb eine Konstante der Außenpolitik der sowjetischen Regierung und Politik bis zum von Hardlinern und Reaktionären versuchten Moskauer Augustputsch 1991." -https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO-Osterweiterung

    Should every country just follow Russian agenda and let them control ex east block states? No!

    Does this mean it is acceptable in any way for them to start a war? No!

    Is it surprising they will act exactly as they said and start a war? Also No…

    You can call it a myth, that’s not they point, because even if so, it was a very powerful myth for Russian government they would act on.

    My point is not, that this makes up for anything Russia does, it doesn’t, my point is that for them NATOs eastward expansion (along with EU expansion) plays a large role in searching for reasons to act imperialistic. Even if we find that wrong, and a bad reason, which I do, we can’t just pretend it isn’t a major talking point for them and make it undone by pretending it isn’t there.

    The point we should be making is why this NATO westward expansion doesn’t excuse starting a war, what their imperialistic interests are that make them use this claim and what our proposed way is of handling things differently is (international law, peacefull Negotiations about security interest, possible peace guarantees, etc.)

    My problem with your meme is not, that I believe Russia is right, my problem with your meme is, that it makes it seem like Russia is not using NATO westward expansion a excuse to justify their illegal war to their own population and their international partners, which it absolutely does and has been since decades.

    And that Russia starts illegally and forecfully securing control with a country which is not yet in the nato and has exceptional high geopolitical value for them is not so surprising in my opinion either.

    I’m not arguing installing puppet governments, invading sovergein nations, occupying their land and slaughtering their people is remotely acceptable or excusable in any way.

    I’m saying if some dictators say: we don’t invade old east block states as long as you don’t expand eastwards, then we do exactly that, and they do exactly what they said the would, we can’t act all surprised picachu and act like their actions have nothing to do with ours.

    We can choose this conflict, because it is just, because it is the right thing to do, because we believe in the cause of freedom from imperialistic oppression by Russia etc. But we can’t say we couldn’t see that conflict coming and our actions (while the just ones) don’t play any role in it.

    Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 after Russian president Vladimir Putin made false claims that NATO military infrastructure was being built up inside Ukraine and that Ukraine’s potential membership was a threat. Russia’s invasion prompted Finland and Sweden to apply for NATO membership in May 2022.[1] Finland joined in April 2022 and Sweden in March 2024.[2][3][4] Ukraine applied for membership in September 2022 after Russia illegally annexed the country’s southeast.[1] Two other states have informed NATO of their membership aspirations: Bosnia and Herzegovina and Georgia.[5] Kosovo also aspires to join.[6] Joining the alliance is a debated topic in several other European countries outside the alliance, including Armenia, Austria, Cyprus, Ireland, Malta, Moldova, and Serbia.[7][8] -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

  • SomeLemmyUser@discuss.tchncs.detoPolitical Memes@lemmy.world•"It's all so unclear and confusing!"
    1042·
    1 year ago

    While I am absolutley against the illegal aggressive war by Russia against Ukraine - this meme is bordering on rewriting history.

    We (the west) broke our end of the deal made after the cold war. Rightfully so, one could argue, every people should decide for themself which military organization they want to be part of one could argue, but we can’t be surprised if Russia also breaks its end of the deal.

    Is it absolutely Russia’s fault for starting the war? Yes!

    Is it illegal and bad what Russia does? Yes!

    Is it suprising though and has nothing to do with the west, in their eyes, breaking the deal… No… Not really