The original (presented) heart of the visas were to pull in some of the best and brightest of other countries to fast track them to become Americans, thus bolstering the output of America. This actually resembles the current American brain drain, where other countries are taking advantage of the mistreatment of scientists and other high-intelligence fields in the US to help their country have an even better output. In theory, the original plan makes a lot of sense. Improve the compensation of some of the smartest people around the world, and improve America. But in practice, it is being sorely misused.

I partially agree. I think not voting is a vote for whichever candidate you like the least, since if you had voted somewhere else, the candidate you like the least would have gotten a smaller percentage of the votes. If you want to cast a blank vote, vote for whichever party would do the least damage., since that will actually have a measurable outcome. If you think all candidates are equally bad, including 3rd party, I think voting for someone who has some level of cultural relevance and holds the same views you do makes the most sense, since that makes the statement that you would vote for candidates like that person.

You make it seem so black and white. I don’t think it’s as simple as the lesser evil choice is 100% wrong full stop. For instance, I support the lesser evil mindset over the not voting mindset. However, if one exists, I support voting for a politician that genuinely supports your views over the lesser evil mindset.

Not voting makes no sense to me, because a null vote has the same effect as a vote for whichever candidate you like the least.

I guess the fundamental difference between your perspective and mine is that I don’t see it as refusing to play their game, I see it as just another move in their game. I think there is no way to avoid playing the game, and so you should make a move that leads to the least bad outcome. It doesn’t take much effort, maybe a day of research at most to pick whoever you want to vote for. Not voting is technically a vote for whichever candidate you like the least, at least it has the same outcome.

That being said, I agree with you in that that won’t result in change on a larger, long-term scale, and that actions must be taken outside of the system to get what you want. But that stance and my stance on not voting are not mutually exclusive.

I don’t agree with this, but I understand the sentiment. While I think, at the core of it, the folks at the top of both sides have the same goals in mind, I don’t think the elections are rigged to that degree. Also, while voting 3rd party feels like a waste of a vote, I don’t see it as one, since third party votes are counted, and can have some semblance of social sway. Not voting and voting for a party that you disagree most with will have the same effect however, since both pull the vote towards the candidate you like the least.

Oh, then I think we agree with each other. I’m specifically wondering why someone would abstain from voting

I don’t know if I understand what you are suggesting. Are you saying the working class should vote third party, or each person should vote for themself? Or when you say vote for our own parties do you mean not vote at all?

I don’t think I understand what you’re saying. Are you saying that the time it takes to look into a candidate is the damage being done? I was thinking on a larger scale. All 4 options lead to a politician getting sworn in, who will inevitably, directly cause people to die. Picking the option that appears to be likely to kill the least people would theoretically cause the least damage in their 4 years. I’m calling 4 years the short term here.

I’d love to have a discussion about this. I am a socialist through and through. I believe that the system needs to be dismantled to achieve any meaningful change, and that no progress can realistically be made within the system.

I’d argue that there are 4 actions within the system. Vote red, vote blue, vote third party, and don’t vote. I’d argue that all 4 options will never lead to meaningful change. However, given this, every American who is eligible to vote is forced into playing the game, there is no way to abstain. Even not voting leads to a meaningful outcome within the system, and thus is still playing the game.

If no actions within the system can change things, I pose that the only way to disrupt this system is by dismantling it from the outside via revolution.

This however, cannot be done overnight, even if you are consistently acting on it. These types of things take a general sense of civil unrest to get kicked off. I believe that under capitalism, this unrest is inevitable, and once it hits a tipping point, the revolution will start. In the meantime, I feel we have two actions we can take.

First, we should be ushering in the revolution. Organize, make people aware of the alternative, disrupt the system in any means you reasonably can, try to get people to be sympathetic to the cause, etc. Don’t slack on your responsibility to prepare and eventually initiate the revolution.

Second, since we have no choice but to play the game we’ve been dropped in to, you should vote for short term damage mitigation. If you are forced to take an action within the system, I feel people have a moral obligation to try to reduce the harm to others as much as possible. This involves making a vote, since not voting results in almost the same outcome as a vote for the candidate furthest away from the one you considered least harmful.

I have yet to see an argument that shows how not voting is going against or dismantling the system. However, considering so many people believe that not voting is the right choice, I’m really interested in hearing someone explain it to me, as there must be some reasoning behind it that I’m not seeing.

You act as though I’ve contradicted myself. You answered my question, so I continued the conversation. If you hadn’t, I wouldn’t have. I asked a follow up question, hoping you’d answer that one, too. Like last time, if you don’t answer it, I’ll have to call it here.

So just to be clear, the reason you didn’t vote is that you won’t back down to liberals? Sounds a lot like "owning the libs, " which is the reason I see a lot for why people voted for Trump. I mean, it’s finally a reason I guess. Thank you for sharing.

Earlier you referenced the trolley problem. In the standard trolley problem setup, do you think that the morally correct move is to not touch the lever?

I don’t argue in bad faith. I’m not being malicious or dishonest. I genuinely feel that, as folks who are voting-eligible in the US, we are in a form of the trolley problem. I don’t know how it could be seen any other way.

As for being called out and dismantled, you haven’t even contested my decision besides saying it’s wrong. That’s not an argument. I want to see some logic behind why you condemn a choice, and logic as to why your choice is better. If it’s because voting leads to genocide, I want to hear your explanation on why not voting doesn’t lead to genocide. Considering that, by your own admission, you make voting decisions based around “not backing down to liberals”, maybe you really don’t hold that opinion with any logic to back it.

For a scoialist, you are very focused on specific candidates. I’m not going to tell you who to vote for, I don’t think of things in that way. When it comes time to vote, I suggest voting for whoever you personally think will lead to the most harm reduction, as it’s the only good option I see us having. Expecting more from the system is putting more faith into capitalism than it deserves. Last presidential election, I felt that was Kamala, and honestly not by much, but I’d genuinely like to hear why you may have thought that not voting would be the least harmful option.

You seem to think I’m upset. I’ve been enjoiying our chat. I’ve been on the internet long enough to not let some random troll get on my nerves. I’m just genuinely curious in what logic lead you to your decision. Now, I’ve already said what I accomplished by voting. But you should know that, as you have presumably been reading my responses. If you aren’t going to answer my question in your next response, I’m going to have to call it here. I’m patient, but my enjoyment of this conversation was from the pretense that you would eventually stop your seething and barking and actually open up on your thoughts around voting. From your current behaviour, I’m disappointed to say I can’t see that happening. I’ll just have to find someone else with your same stance that is actually up for a discussion.

I just want to understand your stance. What are you accomplishing by not voting?

You respond so angrily and accusatorily. Why would I reply with an lol if you are actually making an attempt at communication? Why do you assume I use LLMs? I have given zero indication that either of those beliefs would be true. You are showing yourself to be someone that comes up with a view that you don’t change despite all signs pointing to it being wrong. Either you are a troll, or your preferred method of discussion is to speak loudly with fingers in your ears.

I’ve read plenty of socialist theory, but I have never gone through a socialist reading list. Plenty of derivative works cover the same stuff as that pamphlet.

And again, you seem to be purposefully ignoring my point, likely because you’ve already decided what you think I believe, and are unwilling to change that view despite me telling you you are wrong.

I don’t advocate for any candidates on either side. There is no candidate that I back. If I could start the revolution myself tomorrow, I would. But I can’t. No one can. The way I see it, the revolution won’t come due to who you do or do not vote for. If you disagree, explain why. Tell me, what are you accomplishing by not voting? That’s what I’ve been asking since the very beginning, and yet you, for some reason, choose to continue being uncouth and not actually engaging in this conversation.

No, you were not right. I’m a Socialist through and through. Nothing good can come from capitalism or a democratic republic. I just feel that I have a have a moral obligation to do what I can to save innocent lives, especially if all it takes is to swallow my pride and disdain for the game I am forced to play and check a box. As the very document you had me read suggests, I don’t believe the system can be changed from within. The system needs to be dismantled from the outside. I feel like a broken record because I’ve already stated all of this.

Do you notice that your responses ignore almost the entirety of mine? Do you notice that almost every single thing you’ve said thus far is an insult? Do you notice that you are creating a narrative of myself that doesn’t line up with what I’m saying? Do you know how to structure an argument? Do you know how to explain your own opinion? I’d like to have a genuine discussion about your opinion, but you don’t seem capable of that.

Also, I actually did read Reform or Revolution. I took a good hour and a half out of my day to do it. And I only responded “lol” when you lost your composure and started responding with zero substance. If you can’t be bothered to hold your end of a conversation, even to the insanely low standards you have been thus far, why would I put any effort into a real response?

You seem upset. I’m not trying to demand you do anything. In fact, I’d reckon we share the same views politically, in all cases except for vote/no vote. There are many people that hold the stance that not voting was the morally correct move to make. I have never seen someone defend that stance though, they all devolve into ragebaiting, just as you are now. I was really hoping I could hear why someone would obstain from voting, and the line of reasoning they used to come to the conclusion that it was morally the only correct option, because I wholeheartedly disagree, but am open to having my mind changed.

But you seem to be purposefully playing dense to be a troll. I would expect someone who holds such a strong opinion as yours would want to help bring people to an understanding of that strong opinion, but you don’t seem to care about that at all. From what I can tell, you just want to point fingers and feel like you are above everyone else.

lol

lol

Still hurtling insults and dodging questions. It appears that’s all you’re capable of. Have you ever had an original thought? Say whatever you need to help you sleep at night mate